REDIRECTED TO MAYBEMAIMED.COM: Maybe Maimed but Never Harmed

In my experience with men who have seen pros and men who haven't, men who saw them when younger and didn't realise it wasn't compulsory and men who do it regularly and clearly actually prefer it - I think it seems to be to do with holding back part of the submission.

Paying for it clearly isn't real submission. These men know it. In fact, that is the point. They can console themselves that they aren't *really* submitting. 'Cause that would be scary and mean they were subs. Kind of like men who cruise for a cocksucking but would never call themselves gay.

I think I can say for certain that men who regualrly visit prodoms are terrible, self-hating submissives and quite often hate women too.

I can clearly say to you - these men aren't you. But they are representing you to the wider world and you need to be angry about that.

Paying for it clearly isn't real submission. These men know it. In fact, that is the point. They can console themselves that they aren't *really* submitting. 'Cause that would be scary and mean they were subs. Kind of like men who cruise for a cocksucking but would never call themselves gay.

And that's exactly why I can't respect them. No one deserves my respect who doesn't respect themselves first.

Thanks for your thoughts and comments.

Paying for it clearly isn't real submission. These men know it. In fact, that is the point. They can console themselves that they aren't *really* submitting.

Hmm. I rather suspect that for many, if not most men who do this, they are paying for the fantasy of submitting because they would like to, but have nobody in their lives who will accept them.

Read the half dozen web boards that feature certain pro-dommes. The men seem to do so because they have no regular partners, or because they have a partner who doesn't accept their kinks.

Hmm. I rather suspect that for many, if not most men who do this, they are paying for the fantasy of submitting because they would like to, but have nobody in their lives who will accept them.

Perhaps so, but the point remains it isn't submission in the sense of having a (for lack of a better word) "real" connection with a partner.

And while some may choose to pity these men, usually the "compassionate" types, I still think their failure to find someone to submit to is their own damn fault, because heaven knows I didn't always have someone, but I'll tell you what I didn't do: pay for the fantasy by going to a prodomme.

Sorry for the harsh tone; it's kind of a touchy subject for me.

I really dislike the argument about 'well, I can't get to submit any other how so I'm just going to have to do X or Y', where X and Y are things that are just not OK. Just 'cause you have a kink that isn't being serviced that doesn't excuse unreasonable behaviour.

(If you think visiting pro isn't unreasonable - well that's a different argument)

In fact, even people who play a lot probably have dark kinks that they are never going to let out of the box. God, I do.

Just 'cause you want something doesn't mean the world owes it to you. The world doesn't owe every sub man a dom woman experience. Without him doing anymore to get it than reaching in his pocket.

I am pretty much coming to the conclusion that sub men visiting pro doms devalues this kink for everyone, warps how it is perceived and actually forces people out of the lifestyle. (God, I just said 'lifestyle')

Seems a high price to pay for some selfish guy to have an orgasm.

I have to disagree with you on this one. While there are a lot of "Phone Sex" dommes that are just in it for the money, there are many lifestyle Dommes that practice their art full-time and, therefore, need to make a living at it.

I currently serve Mistress "Wycked Kytten" Trecia and do pay a monthly devotional that probably barely covers the time I spend with her in chat, on the phone, and in person. I also do a lot of work for Mistress including updates and designs for her websites and other technical odd jobs. Additionally, I love to shower her with gifts whenever I can as a symbol of how much I appreciate her being a part of my life.

This is not a "by the hour" lunchtime Domme situation but rather me supporting Mistress to allow her to do what she does best without having to work a sidejob to pay her rent.

I'm not selling my submission in any way. (And it is *real* submission. I had my first sub notions and fantasies when I was as young as 8 and wouldn't settle for anything less than true D/s and power exchange.)

I've had two previous Dommes, neither of which I paid, but truth be told their inexperience ended up pushing me away and I wound up leaving the lifestyle for almost 9 years.

Mistress Trecia is the real deal and the modest monthly tribute I pay comes back to me in sheer joy many times over.

Feel free to judge for yourself - I blog daily about my adventures in subspace.

Thank you timidboy...

You and I both know firsthand and very personally how "real" our D/s is...

It's really sad to see such blanket judgments and labels being assigned to such a varied portion of OUR society.

I truly hope those of you who have such passionate views on the subject have taken to time to get to know a couple Pros and clients on a personal level before making such assumptions and conclusions.

I would be happy to continue this discussion with any and everyone anytime, you may contact me through any one of my handful of sites which I dedicate WELL over 60 hours a week to.

Happy Humpday!

timidboy:

While there are a lot of "Phone Sex" dommes that are just in it for the money, there are many lifestyle Dommes that practice their art full-time and, therefore, need to make a living at it.

In my experience, which is the preface I will implicitly be using before all of these remarks, the fact of the matter is that there are very, very few "lifestyle Dommes" and many, many businesspeople. I can appreciate the difficulty in needing to reconcile bills with the activity you desire to perform, which in their case is selling domination services, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still the oldest profession in the world, and it's the effects on society at large in regards to the effects of BDSM prostitution (defined as simply the exchange of sexual services for money) that we're really talking about here.

Also take from this comment the fact that I am not talking about you or Mistress Trecia personally because I don't know either of you.

I currently serve Mistress "Wycked Kytten" Trecia and do pay a monthly devotional that probably barely covers the time I spend with her in chat, on the phone, and in person. I also do a lot of work for Mistress including updates and designs for her websites and other technical odd jobs. Additionally, I love to shower her with gifts whenever I can as a symbol of how much I appreciate her being a part of my life.

However, what I do know about both of you already shows that you have a very different relationship than the ones I'm talking about. The comment you made, quoted above, shows this quite nicely.

This is not a "by the hour" lunchtime Domme situation but rather me supporting Mistress to allow her to do what she does best without having to work a sidejob to pay her rent.

On a totally separate topic, I don't find anything about the fact that you would rather support her so she doesn't have to "work a sidejob" to be anything more than the very act of exchanging sexual services for money. If Mistress Trecia wants to make her living from this line of work then so be it, but I'll tell you flat out that what that is called is prostitution, no ifs ands or buts about it.

The two of you may feel differently about prostitution than I do, and certainly about BDSM prostitution, and that's fine, but don't do yourself or the rest of the world the disservice of calling it something it's not. That makes me angry because what you do is not what I do, and the fact that the untrained eye of the mass public can not tell the difference harms me in my personal life. I can not and will not stand for being harmed by anyone—not even by my Mistress.

I'm not selling my submission in any way. (And it is *real* submission. I had my first sub notions and fantasies when I was as young as 8 and wouldn't settle for anything less than true D/s and power exchange.)

I won't argue about what "real" submission is or not, because frankly I don't have the right word to describe what I really meant in my head. I also don't intend to question your submission, because that's not the point of this conversation and I'm sure whatever you have is very real to you, which is as it should be. I know what it's like to have these urges from a young age (it was at 4 for me), and I'm very happy for you that you've found an outlet for them.

However, I will say this: what do you think will change about your relationship if you no longer provided Mistress Trecia with cold hard currency? Think about it, really think about it, and if you're even the least bit uncertain, I challenge you to actually stop paying her.

I shower Eileen (my Mistress) with gifts all the time. But if she couldn't make a living on her own, completely without my financial help, in this world, I wouldn't be submissive to her. She wouldn't deserve it. And generalizations used purposefully, I don't think anyone would.

Feel free to judge for yourself - I blog daily about my adventures in subspace.

Like I said, you're not the typical jon I believe that many of us (and certainly me), are talknig about. You've got elements of your relationship that I disagree with, but there's no problem with disagreement. It's what makes diversity, and I absolutely love diversity. That's why you're on my blogroll, and there you'll stay the better your writings become. I enjoy reading your blog.



MWK:

It's really sad to see such blanket judgments and labels being assigned to such a varied portion of OUR society.

See above. Also, blanket labels are not necessarily untrue. For example, "People who live in Germany are largely German." Likewise, "People who do BDSM professionally are selling a sexual service." In my book, that is not my society, thank you very much. I don't fit into that cross-section of the population and I strongly resent the insulting notion that many uneducated people have about me that makes them think I would be in that cross-section just because they hear I'm a submissive man and I like being dominated.

So if you want to talk about generalizations and labels, let's talk about that one, and how unfair that is to me.

I truly hope those of you who have such passionate views on the subject have taken to time to get to know a couple Pros and clients on a personal level before making such assumptions and conclusions.

Actually, as I've been saying many times throughout my postings, I am very good friends with (currently) 3 professional Dommes here in my local area. They are actively working in three different ProDomme houses around the city. Earlier, I used to regularly attend another ProDomme house's parties (they had a weekly party on Friday and a monthly one) because I would be invited by two of the Mistresses there with whom I was friendly.

I've also known another ProDomme who does primarily financial domination, and I've known her for about 4 and a half years now. She's an incredible woman. I could go on, for example next weekend a friend of mine who is now a former prodomme is hosting a private party that I am attending, but I think I made my point.

The fact that these women are professional dommes does not make them any less my friends, it does not make them any less good people, and it does not mean that what they have to bring to the table is of less value than what I bring. It does, however, mean that they are all sex workers.

I would be happy to continue this discussion with any and everyone anytime, you may contact me through any one of my handful of sites which I dedicate WELL over 60 hours a week to.

I would certainly be interested in discussing your choice in profession more with you, MWK, but not right now. I'm already an hour late for work as it is. (Eep.)

Have a great day, all.

What's curious about your thoughts on this topic from my perspective is that, knowing you so very well, I understand exactly why your opinion remains so passionate, both because of and in spite of your experiences with prodommes submission. You have the the ability, the willingness and the confidence to deal out your respect sparingly and with specific strings attached: intelligence, awareness, and truthfulness come to mind.

You also know that I agree with many of your points on the topic, because we've talked it over in person on many a long night in some cozy diner. I don't, however, think that a monetary exchange necessarily results in false submission. Monetary exchanges can take place between aware and intelligent partners in life, whether D/s or vanilla. The example of having only one partner working to support the other during school or child-raising comes to mind. It seems likely that should a situation like that arise between a D/s couple, it could become sexualized very easily.

I know that's a very different example than your average businesss-lunchtime-sub, but I also know that there are exceptions to every rule. I also know that the example I cited is a situation that doesn't really appeal to either of us (although I'm still hoping to make enough money to keep you as my houseboy.) Just a thought.

Second thought is that some men use prodommes not for submission, but for bottoming. You used to draw a very distinct and almost impassable line between those two ideas. The last two years have blurred that quite a bit. Now, is it less unforgivable for a man to pay someone to beat him up, not as a submissive act but because he just needs to be hurt? You're familiar with that itch, but have always had people to satisfy it for you. What about those who don't?

I don't, however, think that a monetary exchange necessarily results in false submission. Monetary exchanges can take place between aware and intelligent partners in life, whether D/s or vanilla.

Something I also mentioned on Bitchy's post is that what it comes down to, for me, is that sexualizing the exchange of money is not negative (it’s often very sexy), but exchanging money for the purposes of engaging in or continuing to receive sexual services is called prostitution, and I don’t like that.

Now, is it less unforgivable for a man to pay someone to beat him up, not as a submissive act but because he just needs to be hurt? You're familiar with that itch, but have always had people to satisfy it for you. What about those who don't?

Ah, but is that a sexual service? It certainly doesn't hit so many emotional buttons for me if the guy is paying just to be hurt physically, because thereinlies the difference: it's physical, and already has a lot less emotionally to do with the domme right then and there.

I am sure you were calling me uneducated...

and it's not that I can't support myself... not at all it's that I am skilled and blessed enough to be able to support myself doing something I truly LOVE.

My occupation is my preoccupation.

I invite your contact maymay, to discuss my choice of profession as well as my resume and future career goals... but please do approach me with an open mind or we won't get very far.

I (of course) meant "weren't" calling me uneducated.

Posted something based on this. Took way too long to write it. Too sleepy to be coherent. Woo.

Hello Maymay,

I've been trying to work out how the outlook you express here, is different than the "One True Way®" which you describe as something you don't like in other places. If it is a good, healthy, inclusive, respectful idea to expect people to celebrate difference and acceptance for OUR benefit, I can't figure out why it isn't a good, healthy, inclusive, respectful ides for us to do similarly for the benefit of others. I can't figure out why decrying one behaviour from others is different from the same behaviour being somehow acceptable for us to exhibit. I just can't work out how that's supposed to work.

I wrote a post about this very topic. I don't think it's built-in-unreasonable for people to visit pro doms. I don't think doing so denigrates submission or denigrates dominance. I also don't think for the most part that dominance and/or pro dom = prostitute. The only thing I get for sure from your post, is that visiting a pro dom isn't right for you.

I do disagree with the bulk of what you wrote here, but I do like the way you wrote it. :)

Best regards,

Lubyanka

It was me that said it was unreasonable. I still think it is. Mostly. Guys who have seen pros are usually worse submissives for it.

And I think May is perfectly within his rights to say that what these men do devalues him. Male submissives are represented appallingly in the wider world. Every time a guy bank rolls another pro he's helping to finance another website/ad/sensationalist documentary telling the world that this is what our kink is. That male subs are primarily *clients* that quality of submission is judged on ability to pay.

If more submissives were like May, and placed a value on their submission - stood up and faced down the power that was trying to tell them they were bad and wrong and sick, the world would be better for all male submissives.

Too many men choose the cheap and dirty thrill that makes them all poorer.

Ooh, it's actually The Prisoner's Dilemma - how many kinds of neat is that?

If more submissives were like May, and placed a value on their submission

A "value" that happens to agree with your own?


- stood up and faced down the power that was trying to tell them they were bad and wrong and sick, the world would be better for all male submissives.

*sighs*

Funny how this old post is picking up steam.

I don't think that theres' very much that anyone can do to make submission - especially male submission - seem "okay" to the rest of the world, especially if it involves serious pain, whipping, blood, or rubbing piss all over their face. Most people will see this as simply not normal behavior (and they would be technically correct) for anyone, and to expect them to accept, let alone understand anyone who wants this is asking too much.

And that leads to my second point: most men who confessed such desires to their wives or partners would be met with disgust or horror. Spend some time reading the blogs, web groups, message forums, etc., and you'll see that most men seem to have a difficult enough time getting vanilla sex. They pay pro-dommes not because the world owes them something, Beej - the fact that they're paying should be the tip-off. They go to pros because they want - if only for an hour at a time - the sensation that it's okay to want things that "normal" people find disgusting.

Does that make - or not make - them "true" subs? Who the hell knows? It makes them paying clients for a service; what they feel subjectively can't be measured.

A "value" that happens to agree with your own?

No. A value. Just that. The whole difference from being 'worthless'.

It can be made better, Tom. I'm sick of the world telling me that the men I prefer to have sex with are sick and unmanly and worthless and pathetic.

Lady Lubyanka, you said: "I've been trying to work out how the outlook you express here, is different than the "One True Way®" which you describe as something you don't like"

As much as I wish I could be, I am very far from ever being altruistic. This entry when originally posted contained more anger and frustration than might come across in just my words here. I'd like to spend some more time thinking about this before writing much more in response to your comment, as well as taking the time to thoroughly digest your linked post.

Thank you for your comment, by the way. It has been thought provoking.

Bitchy wrote: "It can be made better, Tom. I'm sick of the world telling me that the men I prefer to have sex with are sick and unmanly and worthless and pathetic."

I am sick of the world telling me I am sick, unmanly, worthless, and pathetic as well. This is a common message just because I a guy and I like to be sexually submissive. But because I'm a guy that likes to be sexually submissive and does not appreciate the former message, I feel as though you (as in, the collective you, not any one person individually) )have no fucking idea how much harder that is to cope with. The world does this not only with its "advertisements" towards mainstream outlets, but also in the very culture which I inhabit by infiltrating these very ideas into my friends' play parties, my community events, and my own sex life by forcing me to expend untold energies in fending off these emotional onslaughts. That is oppression, and I am not so strong as to be able to shield the world from my emotional wrath.

Hello Maymay,

Thank you for your response. I'm glad what I wrote was thought provoking, I appreciate you telling me. :)

You wrote:

"I feel as though you (as in, the collective you, not any one person individually) )have no fucking idea how much harder that is to cope with."

I truly feel quite strongly that each and every one of us has spent the bulk of our lives hearing ongoing, persistent messages (from what feels like most of the world) which reinforce lessons learnt that at least one aspect of ourselves (usually more than one) makes us sick, worthless and pathetic people.

While I do not in any way wish to minimise dismiss or invalidate your experiences, I don't know a single person (including myself) who has not had to cope with repeated, persistent, ongoing messages that anything in our sexualities which differs from the "permissible" orientation, makes us disgusting human beings.

Even heterosexual vanilla people have to endure years of messages from all directions telling them that having a sexuality at all makes them all vile, evil people. Ireland, where I live, is really chock full of neurotic people (myself included) whose sexualities (and psyches) have been well and truly made a mess of by all kinds of authorities.

I feel that I have been, and am being told from all directions, that I am only allowed to have a sexuality, if I have it solely for the benefit of some "strong" vanilla male, and not enjoy it for my own pleasure. I feel I am told from all directions that enjoying and expressing my own sexuality makes me a promiscuous slut, and that, like sweets, I'm not allowed to enjoy my own sexuality unless I am prepared to share it with the entire class.

And yes, I'm bloody angry about that.

Those submissives who proclaim their worthlessness, they got that idea from somewhere. The opression you speak of opresses them every bit as much as it does you. Somebody gave those submissives the idea that they're worthless and pathetic, and that this is an acceptable idea for them to embrace.

And yes, I'm bloody angry about that as well.

I don't think it would help anybody to be altruistic. Standing up for oneself is a first step in addressing prejudice, intolerance, discrimination, and opression. I just don't think it's required to denigrate others in order to outwardly support and validate the self, in contradiction of the widely held assumptions which plague all of us.

Especially when the others being denigrated are targets of the same opression as you are.

I know it doesn't help your pain to hear that other people endure similar feelings from similar messages.

I feel your pain.

I share it.

I think we all deal with the mess created by those messages in a variety of ways. I guess my problem here is the idea of turning around after that mess has been created, taking that behaviour which harmed us, and repeating it at others.


You also wrote:

"I am sick of the world telling me I am sick, unmanly, worthless, and pathetic as well."

Just in case it helps to hear one more person say it:

I really, REALLY love strong, powerful, intelligent, self-respecting, masculine, submissive men. Those submissive men just rock my world.

:)

Best regards,

Lubyanka. :)

I'm sick of the world telling me that the men I prefer to have sex with are sick and unmanly and worthless and pathetic.

May beat me to this - I'm sick of being told I'm pathetic and worthless and unmanly. Ironically, I'm a hairy, muscular guy who's good with power tools and works in an industry that's particularly male-dominated (no pun intended); in a lot of ways I seem to be the antithesis of the type of person displayed by the media who might enjoy sexual subjugation. I've had some especially bad experiences in the past with trying to open up about this.

But I don't think that railing against pro-dommes (or their clients) is the way to counteract the cultural bias. I don't know what the solution is, but denigrating those who live on the edge of the "lifestyle" doesn't seem to me to be useful.

I'm a hairy, muscular guy who's good with power tools

Oh, Tom, it is cheating to distract me with your masculine wiles.

Oh, Tom, it is cheating to distract me with your masculine wiles.

Well, I've been working out, and just wanted to brag a bit... er, what I mean is, all that toiling out in the field is toning me up.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around some of this stuff, so bear with me...

The notion that BDSM has a political feel? Totally new to me. Ok, not totally new, but new since I discovered this corner of the blogosphere. So I'm trying to understand a totally new view of it.

What I am having a hard time with is this... and I'm going to translate it into vanilla-esque metaphors for clarity. You compare prodommery to prostitution. Or say it is prostitution.

Leave out everything else about prodommery good or bad or anything else for just a min, because I need to understand just this one little bit of it...

So, looking at prostitution. Prostitution is portrayed a certain way in the media, online, etc. How prostitution is portrayed doesn't impact my sex life. At all. It doesn't make people think that sex in general is about something it isn't. Right? (... and despite my love of being right, I can be wrong. It is often when I learn something new)

So how is it that prodommery (if it is always kinky prostitution) any different, in that it impacts my kinks?

I kind of love how this relatively short post has spawned such incredible long comments. :) But anyway,

Sue,

"You compare prodommery to prostitution. Or say it is prostitution. […] How prostitution is portrayed doesn't impact my sex life. At all. It doesn't make people think that sex in general is about something it isn't. Right?"

Really? I beg to differ; prostitution changes sex politically and always has and always will. It may not change the way you fuck, but it certainly changes things like the laws about what kind of fucking is okay and what kind isn't. Laws are codes of behavior that governments get to enforce based upon the perceived majority's ethical ideals, themselves based upon a morality (in America, a very Christian one).

I think a lot of people don't really think pro-dommery or prostitution changes much about the way they have sex, but I also think msot of these people also don't mind how it affects them and so why would they bother to care in the first place?

Pro-dommery affects me and changes the way I have sex because the images of female domination and, more poignantly, male submission, cause people to treat me in ways I don't like. It's not my friends who do that, it's the world at large, so it's not really intended to be personal (and I do my best not to take it too personally, but that's hard), but it sure as fuck pisses me off.

Not sure if that actually helps; I just woke up and haven't rubbed the sleep from my eyes yet.

Just thought I would chip in. I used to see Pro Dommes from 18 years old to 21 years old then I stopped altogether its been about 7 years since I saw one now and I will never see one for the rest of my life now.

The reason I did it at the time was because I wasnt aware of anything else or a scene or anything. If I had known at the time that these women where making money out of the fact there are ao few Dommes I would not have seen them at all.

One of the Pro's I saw started to fall in love with me, she was quite stressed and frustrated with her love life. I wanst expecting this at all and I did not enjoy it.

Well .... No clients bothered to show up and respond really so...

I think you are completely off your rocker regarding the attitudes of clients towards there own sexuality. I have a great marriage to a terrific woman: a woman who for 14 years has given me support in my career, has been a wonderful mother and a fantastic partner for life. She also doesn't have it in her to tie someone up that she cares about and hit them hard enough to leave welts and bruises.

But the fact of the matter is:
-- If I died tomorrow I have perfect confidence my kids would grow up healthy and happy because of the woman I am married to.
-- I've gone a more than a decade without having a serious fight about money.
-- And I have a partner whose opinions I genuinely respect. Almost without exception when she has questioned or disagreed with my choices: either there is a simple disagreement on fact or there is a major aspect of the decisions I haven't considered. Oh and vice versa, she's a very bright woman and loves having someone in her life she can bounce big choices off of, that really does care about her and at the same time makes choices the way she would.

But yeah, she would suck using a cane. Erratic woman with volatile tempers turn me on tremendously. And if my dick were the most important thing in my life I'd be sure to hook up with a woman like that. But it isn't, and it isn't 2nd or 3rd either. So once in a while I hire a woman who gets to play the totally irrational violent game and I have a great time. They make a couple hundred dollars and we both go away relatively happy. But oh yeah deep down they are acting, and the real thing would be much more sexually satisfying. Why would I want to destroy a happy family over a sexual whim?

Oh and we both hate taking care of the lawn so we have a gardner to do that as well. Frankly, D/S puts you in touch with the sorts of raw emotions that are probably better kept out daily life and wives and husbands spend most of their time together dealing with daily life.

CD-Host, with all due respect, I have to respectfully disagree with most of what you said. You don't seem to even be addressing the points I'm making in most of your comment, and in the parts that are, you're saying things I think are downright dangerous, though not invalid.

As an aside, let me remind you that this blog is stale, and to continue this discussion, please re-post your comment on the new page for this post. I'd be happy to give your comment a more thorough response over there.

In brief, however, the state of your marriage and whether or not it is healthy is not up for debate, nor is the mental tenacity of your children. What is up for debate is how your patronage of pro-doms affects the cultural tropes of BDSM, and your remark that "D/S puts you in touch with the sorts of raw emotions that are probably better kept out daily life" is exactly the kind of attitude that treats D/s, kink, BDSM, and indeed most sexualities as self-expressions that are off-limits in "normal, day-to-day life."

Maybe your marriage can't incorporate frequent cane strokes administered by your wife and so visiting a pro-domme is just the ticket for you, but when you turn your combination marriage and pro-domme patronage into the exemplar of how D/s should be envisioned, then you leave no room for the opinion of others.

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